California Sober: Cannabis, Psilocybin, and the Substance Spectrum in Sober Curious Part 2 (89)

This episode continues our "Sober Curious" conversation from Episode 88, diving deeper into community stories and examining the roles of cannabis and psilocybin and being "California Sober". We also explore the question, "What is a substance?"

You'll hear from community members about their evolving relationships with substances, the impact these substances have on personal relationships and mental health, and diverse perspectives on defining a substance.

Please note: If discussions about substance abuse and/or sexual assault are triggering for you, we recommend skipping this episode.

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Substance definition

Episodes Referenced:
Ep 88- Sober Curious Part 1
Ep 5- Microdosing and Earth Medicine
Ep 83- The History of Mushrooms

Chapters

• 0:00 Exploring Relationships With Substances
• 15:21 Exploring Substance Use and Personal Growth
• 32:43 The Role of Sobriety in Relationships

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hi everyone and welcome back to how the Wise One Grows. Last week on the podcast, you heard a conversation about what it means to be sober, curious, and we have to continue this conversation. So in that episode you heard brief clips from our listeners about the relationship with substances, but a lot of the shares you sent in were so powerful that today I really want to hold space to dive deeper by exploring the relationships that people have with cannabis and psilocybin and really diving into the question of what is a substance. To support you in this conversation and your journey of your relationship with substances. I've created a sober, curious support guide, and this isn't telling you like not to drink or anything like that. It's just providing a scaffolding to reflect on the relationship you have with substances and the one that you would like to hold in the future, and it also includes some really powerful tips for those who are trying to drink less or maybe not at all. It's also a super helpful resource if you are trying dry January, so you can get that PDF by clicking the link in the show notes.

Speaker 1: 1:18

So before we get started and dive into today's conversation, let's take a moment to land here, together with 3D breaths. So just take a moment now to notice where your body makes contact with the earth and take a big breath in, fill your chest, fill your belly with air, exhale, open your mouth, let it all out. Then inhale, chest and belly, expand, exhale, let it go One more. Inhale and exhale, return to that connection to the earth and slowly open your eyes as you return to this space. I am so excited to be back and to continue this conversation with you all. I also want to preface this conversation that the shares you'll hear today reference substance abuse and sexual assault. So if conversations about those things are triggering for you in any way, go ahead and skip this episode. So you're about to hear a really personal and powerful reflection from a community member about the long evolution of their relationship with substance.

Speaker 2: 2:54

Not many people know about this. None of my family knows about this or I haven't talked to anyone in my family about this and most of my friends don't know. But I started using heart drugs when I was a teenager and I would hang out with people that were much older than me in college when I was like 15, 16, 17. And I was introduced to I don't know if I can say it out loud, but cocaine and heroin and painkillers and weed and alcohol on top of alcohol and heart drugs. I started smoking cigarettes when I was 14 as well. I would say this is after my parents were divorced. I had an incredibly abusive childhood at home and actually in school as well. I was sexually assaulted throughout middle school and high school. So I definitely know that my substance abuse was correlated with just things that I was going through in life and I needed to escape, and I did a lot of drugs. So throughout my teen years and my early 20s I would OD a lot. It got to the point. I mean long story short. I do feel like I could go on for a very long time talking through all these different instances that I've had in my life, but the breaking point that I had was when I got evicted from my apartment. It was the second time that I didn't have a place to live in my life and I started to just steal oxycontins and I would take a couple and drink an entire big bottle of wine and it got to a point where I could steal myself, kind of give in to that, and then I would just make myself throw up. But I did stop all the hard drugs because I started climbing and I really wanted to get better at climbing and the one way to get better at climbing is to be healthy. So I stopped doing drugs. I actually stopped drinking a lot I still drink, you know, on the weekends and stuff but I used to drink and go out and get blackout drunk every single night of the week and I think that was about 10 years ago that I started on this journey of working on myself through what I put in my body and the results are wild. I mean, obviously they say that, but you really don't know how change is going to affect you until you put that change in place. So throughout the last 10 years I told myself I will never, ever touch a downer or Coke or anything like that ever again, because I remember how much I loved it and I will never allow myself to feel that again because I am worried that I would fall back into that. So that is something that I think about. I don't want to say every day, but it's kind of close to there. I, you know, think about it almost every day and I've been in therapy for like two decades. So it has taken me a lot of work, a lot of self discipline and a lot of like validation and reassurance that what I'm doing is good for myself and I'm making the right choices for me.

Speaker 2: 7:03

My family has a very long history of addiction and mental illness and I think about that all the time. You know my father. He passed away, you know, a few years ago and I think about how he did a lot of hard drugs when he was my age. He was an alcoholic. He was also mentally ill and was on, you know, 10 different prescription pills every day and I decided that I could just not. I didn't want to live my life like that. So I work really, really hard and with therapy and with mindfulness and all of these different aspects and all these different tools and coping tools that I use every day to like work through, you know these things, that other people might take pills for a prescription pill. I'm not saying that that's bad. I just think that there's different paths and different journeys.

Speaker 2: 8:05

My relationship with substances, I guess, is a long and complicated one and honestly it's always changing. I'm in a place right now where I don't drink anymore. I pick myself apart. I'm like how is this making me feel? And I've realized my heart races, I feel bad, I have anxiety anyway and it just makes my depression and anxiety so much worse. So I am in a place right now where I don't really want alcohol in my life, and so you know I'm working through that. But I will say that I smoke weed every day and I love it. I have had two set boundaries with that. You know. I don't smoke it during the day or when I feel like I need to work and get stuff done. I'm not going to say that it makes you unproductive, because it actually sometimes makes me more productive, but I am doing work in the creative field and it allows me to, you know, feel more creative and express myself in different ways. It also is amazing for my anxiety.

Speaker 2: 9:15

I have really bad insomnia and I also don't eat. I Always do like tea breaks, tolerance breaks. I went four days without smoking weed and I couldn't eat. Like I would force myself, I would go running, I'm like working out to try and get you know my hunger, and I would come home and have like one slice of pizza and I'm just like man, like my, I just like run on high and I wasn't sleeping. Well, you know, there might be that thing where, like I didn't allow my body to actually adapt to not having it, but I Started smoking again two days ago and it's wonderful. I just feel so much better. I sleep through the night, I don't wake up in the middle of the night sweating, or I don't have nightmares just For me personally. I know everyone's journey is different and everyone you know reacts differently to different things, but it helps me so much. I eat a lot, I'm able to gain weight, which I feel I personally need to do so.

Speaker 1: 10:25

I did a little research because there are a Few people I've had conversations with who have shared similar Stories to the discomfort they'll feel when they'll stop using cannabis if they've been heavily using it for a prolonged amount of time. So when you use a lot of cannabis for a continuous amount of time and it's like steady, it's a daily thing or almost every day and it's a high quantity, you suppress the body's cannabinoid receptors and the natural ability of your body to create dopamine, because your body is expecting to get these things from somewhere else, which is you're getting it from THC. So when you take a pause, it's normal to feel negative implications like feeling really irritable, having trouble sleeping, a decreased appetite, anxiety, restlessness, depression, but on average after about two to three weeks your body should start to recalibrate and you shouldn't be feeling these symptoms so much. I've also had conversations with loved ones who have shared that they have a really hard time Finding balance if they've been smoking cannabis for a long time and consistently. They go from either smoking all the time or not at all.

Speaker 1: 11:38

Something that someone shared with me that I found really great was that when they have struggled with this cycle of smoking all the time or not at all. The most supportive thing for them has been making it a ritual. So, rather than being in the habit of smoking at this time of day without thinking about it too much, they tried to create a really intentional time in place to pause. So they sit at an altar, they roll a joint and they set an intention and Ask their body what is the intention for smoking right now? Is this what I should do right now? And sometimes the answer is no, and when it is, they listen to that and that's okay.

Speaker 1: 12:22

But creating that moment to pause and have an intention can help break that habit cycle. Another thing that they reflected on is that as you grow over time, your relationship with Substance, including cannabis, is gonna change too. So they used to see cannabis as a really powerful tool to be in their body and to connect with their deeper self, but now they're able to do that more naturally and without substance support. So cannabis now will make them feel more anxious or or not as connected in their body, and what they reflected was that they've learned that Cannabis is an earth medicine and it's telling them now that it's not supportive for them at this time, but it doesn't mean it wasn't in the past. So when working with cannabis and other earth medicines, it's really important to lean into the question of what is the medicine telling you.

Speaker 2: 13:21

While I personally feel like weed is definitely gonna be something consistent for a really long time, like I think that I still feel judged by it. I feel awkward or uncomfortable telling people that I smoke weed every day because I feel that there are misconceptions about it that I'm lazy or I'm productive, when I'm actually incredibly productive to the point where it's kind of neurotic and I need to chill sometimes. I have recently started micro dosing psilocybin and I've been kind of like tinkering with that different dosages and that's also been wonderful. In the mornings they say you know, it's kind of like a really clean cup of coffee and it is. But yeah, I'm still working through micro dosing and I'm liking the journey. Right now I'm very focused, I wake up and I have energy. It gives me like a clean energy and I am happy and I smile.

Speaker 1: 14:23

I just want to take a moment to lean in and show gratitude for the honesty and vulnerability that this person provided in their share. It's conversations like these and our ability to be truly honest and open up with one another that can best support each other. So I'm sure that so many of you listening can relate to different parts of the story you just heard and I hope that it provides you support as you reflect and navigate your own journey with substances. So in this next share we're going to hear from another community member who shares about their relationship with substances and explores a little bit more into the side that substance plays in social situations.

Speaker 3: 15:11

My relationship with substance has just kind of like fluctuated for my whole life. I guess not really fluctuated, but been a big wave. Growing up, our parents did a lot of partying and drinking and it was like a community activity and I really liked that. I saw that they had fun and they let loose and so it was kind of in my life is like okay, I do that to connect and have fun with alcohol specifically. So then when I was young, mid teen, I started drinking and again it was like for connection and community, making friends, like being part of the group you know all the things that you're trying to do developmentally as a teenager Ask like, how do I fit in here? And that seemed like a good way. I also like had fun, made memories when I did it, but I didn't start feeling shitty that much after, because hangovers aren't that bad, you know, when you're younger.

Speaker 3: 16:20

But yeah did leave me to feeling out of control and there were times when I did feel like out of control and safe with my body and I felt like it having alcohol led to an increase in that sense of just like fear, especially being a woman, of like being out of control in your body. I've had experiences with, just like sexual assault that had to do around drinking. The worst one, I actually was not drinking but the other person was, and that you know left a deep trauma and so that's another thing. But yeah, alcohol was a part of my life, especially as a late teen in early college, and then marijuana kind of joined the show. I smoked a good amount in high school. As a way to that, one felt better, like something about it being a plant. Medicine feels better still. But my relationships changed. Yeah, early on it was definitely like doing it because other people were doing it and trying it and feeling a little sense of, yeah, connection increased and also connection with my body felt better with cannabis too.

Speaker 3: 17:55

And then in college, cannabis after my big trauma, my sexual assault I leaned on cannabis as kind of like a numbing and support for getting me through like a time of deep depression and anxiety and panic attacks and it was certainly a crutch and like a banding. But I was grateful for it and sort of created a relationship with that substance. And I certainly view cannabis and psilocybin as medicine when used in the right way. But I think I was definitely using in a not super healthy way. It was like okay, I feel too many emotions and I don't know how to navigate this, so I need cannabis. Then, moving to Boulder, my relationships shifted even more. The kind of guilt and shame around cannabis use lightened because I was there during the transition of it becoming legal and by the time we left a few years after that, it was like you could go to brunch and have a mimosa and or have just like a joint be passed around and it was very normalized and I liked that because I've never loved drinking.

Speaker 3: 19:32

I always loved it for the community and the connection and the like, playfulness and fun that it brought out in other people. And I feel like I have that playfulness kind of innately and it allowed other people to sort of access that with me and kind of gave us an in for connecting with alcohol. But cannabis, yeah, being a part of the norm, helped me to feel like a deeper embodied connection in sort of like a safe way, and also to like feel more open about like authentically expressing my mind and thoughts. And once I had a lot more support with my mental health you know I was going to school for therapy and doing a lot of art and doing a lot of intensive group and individual therapy. I created more of a relationship with cannabis where it was like, okay, I just, you know, do this when I feel like I want to for certain reasons. Yeah, utilizing it in an intentional way instead of like a numbing or escaping way. And I will say, with alcohol, like drinking it like more intentionally, I was definitely not so very curious at that time, but I wasn't drinking tons of alcohol, you know. And then getting pregnant kind of gave me an excuse to stop both of those things. I just became sober for my pregnancies and it allowed me to really face those emotions that had been kind of hiding I've been like running from with these substances for so long and empowered me to sit with them, knowing that I'm bringing a child into the world. That, you know, is the spirit who is here and it's my job to be with them and I want to be with them fully and in total presence. So it wasn't hard for me to not drink or not smoke during my pregnancies. I think that that kind of gave me a step up on to being like oh yeah, substances don't need to be the norm, they are actually like yeah, something that's just like a boost. If you intentionally use it when you feel like it for certain reasons, it's okay. So I started kind of taking those steps when I was pregnant and then between pregnancies I would drink a little, smoke a little, but it was like way less than when in college you know it was constant smoking for that, especially like that big year after my trauma.

Speaker 3: 22:24

And then in the last year really just the last half a year I've been experimenting with psilocybin and microdosing mushrooms and that has just been an amazing experience because I'm doing it with so much intentionality and using it as a way to get to know myself and to connect with others. And since it's on such a micro level, I don't you know, it's like a sub-conscious effect. So it's not like it feels different than weed, where you're like, oh, I'm clearly high, or alcohol, where it's like, oh, I'm definitely buzzed. It feels like I can be in control, which I think is important based on my history, and also intentionally work with this medicine that's been given to us by the earth. Beginning this journey of microdosing, I just kind of naturally stopped drinking and naturally stopped smoking weed. I don't drink anymore, which is, I think, the first time I've ever said that out loud, like all of a sip of beer, and I feel like now I'm at a space where I'm like, oh, I can be in connection with people and I can be in community with people and I can do what feels right for me without having to kind of succumb to this certain way of being in the world. That was like the only way I could connect and allow my like full, authentic self to emerge, if I have this excuse or this like cover, this veil of substance. So that's been really cool, because I didn't.

Speaker 3: 24:18

When I started psilocybin, I wasn't trying to stop drinking and I was really only drinking like once a week, once every two weeks before I started anyway. But it just naturally, like it made me realize like, oh, when someone asked like do you want a beer, I'd be like, actually, no, thank you, I don't. Instead of just being like yes, I do. This is the societal norm, this is what we do at this time and now. I didn't completely stop using cannabis, but I definitely use it way less.

Speaker 3: 24:51

And whenever I use it, I think, like what is my intention here? Like, am I having a hard day? Am I doing this to escape? Can I sit with these feelings or can I be with these feelings in a more embodied way? And sometimes the answer is no, like no, I just like this is what I need to do, like I need to numb out right now, and that's okay, like giving myself that grace. But then also, most of the time, really, when I feel that urge of like I just want to like smoke a little bit, I think Like, okay, well, why? And I get curious about it and often, yeah, it's like hmm, maybe, maybe not. Actually, let's see what, like the root of this like an urge is.

Speaker 3: 25:40

And then sometimes there are times when I'm like, oh, I just like it's such a beautiful day and I want to like be so present. You know, I love that cannabis helps you to like feel so present. But like negatives are so much so that you like forget about bigger or like smaller details of like living your day or doing things you need to be doing. But, yeah, I can intentionally make that choice, which I think is the difference versus feeling like my whole life. It was just like this is the only way I can reach this place of connection and authentic expression and playfulness and presence. And now, yeah, I've let myself sit with my experience and sift through my experiences enough to do that without substance support. But I do love psilocybin and would highly recommend it to anyone who's looking for like a way to distance themselves or just get curious about their substance use. And I really like that it can be done in a way that is kind of gets you away from the addiction mindset and bring in a lot of compassion and just curiosity around substance use.

Speaker 1: 27:08

In these last two shares, you've heard people reflecting on their experiences with microdosing psilocybin. If that is something you are curious about and want to learn more about, I recommend going back and listening to episode five, where we spoke with Liz Bowden on microdosing psilocybin specifically, and in episode 83, we had Liz come back to talk about the history of mushrooms and why there's so much stigma around certain substances like cannabis, psilocybin and more. So if that is of interest to you, go back and listen to those episodes.

Speaker 3: 27:47

So, yeah, I think my only question would be like what do you think counts as a substance? Because I also use a lot of herbs and so it feels like this kind of funny line between like vitamin-y type of things and, you know, like CBD and Motherwort, like all these herbs that support me in my system on a day-to-day basis, and I feel like cannabis and psilocybin are both like in this like middle ground area where it comes from the earth, and if we use it intentionally and we use it to not numb or bandaid or like distract ourselves from our experience, but instead to lean into our experience that feels different than other substances. That like intention is to take you out of your path, your place in the world, your little body and spirit and emotions.

Speaker 1: 28:49

I love this question of what is a substance and as I started to explore what a substance is and find different definitions, it also made me think about like, who gets to define what a substance is. I found a formal definition that defined a substance as any psychoactive compound with the potential to cause health and social problems, including addiction. So that's one definition of a substance. But as I continued to explore of who gets to define what one is, I wanted to hear what you all thought a substance was, because I don't think that there is a harder fast answer to this. So I threw a poll on Instagram up asking you what you think a substance is and I threw out a bunch of different things to gather your thoughts. So when I asked people if they thought CBD was a substance, most people said yes. When I polled people to see if they think coffee is a substance, again most people said yes. When I asked you if you thought herbs were a substance, most people said no to that, and that one gets really curious because on some level, how is cannabis different from other herbs that we might not define as a substance? Because they both are natural, they come from the earth. What distinguishes that line and there's not a clear answer on that. So I found this really curious to see, like what we define as a substance and what we don't define as a substance. So I asked you for your working definition of what do you think a substance is. How would you describe one? Most people said that a substance was something that alters the natural state of being, and one person added in something that's injectable or ingestible that alters our natural state of being. To me, that definition really resonated as something that is external, that you're putting internally into your body to create a state change, and I think often when people hear the word substance, there is a maybe a negative connotation around it. However, I don't think that we need to define or identify a substance in and of itself as a good or bad thing. I think it's more important to just simply identify what it is and rather than getting caught up on is something a substance or is it not get really intentional about the use? I also asked Jody from episode 88 about how she defined a substance and her thoughts on this question, and she shared that she thinks a substance is anything that can harm you. I think it's really important for us to continue to explore this question of what is a substance. So I invite you to like sit with this question on your own. Talk to others in your community about it, do your own research.

Speaker 1: 32:08

I also want to note that after releasing episode 88 about what it means to be sober curious I heard from so many of you. So many of you reached out and wanted to share where you're at in your relationship with substances. Right now, some of you have stopped drinking altogether and it really highlights to me that we are thinking about this. So many of us are on our own journeys with this and questioning things, and often we're not talking about it with one another enough. After I released this episode, a friend and I were having a conversation about our journeys with substance and what it feels like being sober or sober curious for each of us, and she pointed out that in episode 88, we didn't really dive into the role sobriety plays in friendships and relationships, and we started to talk about, like, what relationships in our lives have shifted and which ones haven't, as we have evolved in our own relationship with substances, and I think that's really important to lean into.

Speaker 1: 33:21

So maybe you feel this way. Maybe you feel like there are some friendships or relationships in your life that have evolved since you have started questioning your relationship with substances and drinking, and maybe you're okay with some of those evolving and shifting, and maybe there are some that you're like man, I still really love this person. It's just harder to find times and ways to connect. I want you to know that you can use this episode as a way to open the door for a conversation. So maybe you share this episode, or episode 88, with someone in your life who might have a different relationship with substance than you and you use it to spark a conversation and to hold space to be really honest with each other and where you're at. Okay, I love you all so much.

Speaker 1: 34:15

Thank you for having this community conversation with me, because listening to the wisdom of one another and connecting with our inner wisdom and each other is at the root of this podcast.

Speaker 1: 34:26

So there is a link in the show notes for you to share what you want to talk about next and also, if you follow the podcast on Instagram at how the wise one grows and follow my account at Holly's Asia, I post polls on there for you to give your feedback and be a part of these conversations as well. So be sure to follow, be sure to share this episode, and let's continue to learn and grow together. If this podcast has made an impact in your life, join the dream team so that we can continue to share this offering with the world. You can join the dream team for as little as $3 a month and help to cover all the costs that go into sharing this offering. And if you can't financially support it this time, you can still make an impact by sharing an episode you love with a friend, leaving a review and following this podcast on your favorite streaming platform. And also don't forget to follow us on social media, at Holly's Asia and at how the wise one grows, on Instagram and on YouTube.