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How the Wise One Grows
Welcome to How the Wise One Grows – where we live with intention by connecting to inner wisdom, one another, and the natural world through mindful conversations and meditations.
Join me, your host Holly Zajur, and guests for heartful interviews about topics like spirituality, wellness, and anything and everything that aids us in navigating the human experience.
Episodes alternate between guest interviews and guided meditations to help you integrate mindfulness into daily life.
The intention is to empower you with a deeper sense of awareness and confidence as you cultivate a fulfilling and authentic life. Each episode is an honest exploration of what supports people as they navigate life’s twists and turns– and a reminder that we are all in this together.
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How the Wise One Grows
How to Decide If You Should Have Kids or Not: Family Planning WIth Keltie Maguire (102)
In this episode, clarity coach Keltie Maguire helps us navigate one of life's most significant decisions—whether to embrace parenthood or opt for a child-free lifestyle. We delve into the societal norms, cultural expectations, and personal considerations that impact this choice. Our discussion is guided by listener questions and stories, addressing the stigmas associated with opting out of parenthood and exploring emotional journeys for both paths.
We also tackle concepts like 'mother hunger' and 'birth strike' in relation to family planning. This episode is designed to help listeners understand personal fulfillment and intentional living, whether deciding to have children or remain child-free.
Join us for an insightful exploration that encourages reflection and self-acceptance, perfect for anyone contemplating this major life decision or seeking affirmation in their choice.
Get the FREE Kids or ChildFree Guide!
Episodes Referenced:
Sober Curious
California Sober
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Resources Referenced
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There can often be a lot of talk about you know good and bad reasons for choosing child-free or choosing to have kids. I think it's more about like is it a good or bad reason for you? Having that honesty with ourselves is really important, and I do think that not just doing it because it's the thing we're seeing other people doing, but really being like why do I personally want this or why do I not want this?
Speaker 3:Hi everyone and welcome back to how the Wise One Grows. So today we get to talk about a really really big life question, and that is the decision to have kids or not. But before we dive into this really important conversation, let's just take a moment to land here, together with three deep breaths. So just take a moment to notice where your body makes contact with the earth and, if it's safe right now, you can gently rest your eyes or soften your gaze, maybe even drop your shoulders down the back, inhale, fill your chest, fill your belly with air, exhale, open your mouth, let it out, inhale, chest and belly. Expand, exhale, let it all. Go One more inhale and exhale and return to that point of contact with the earth as you slowly open your eyes and return to this space.
Speaker 3:I am so excited for this conversation. I know I say that about all of our episodes, but I feel like this is a particularly juicy one. And to guide us in this conversation, listeners have sent in their thoughts and questions about this topic and we have Kelty McGuire, a clarity coach, to guide us. So just a bit about Kelty. Kelty began speaking about her decade-long struggle to decide whether to have kids or stay child-free and her eventual arrival at the decision to embrace a child-free life. Kelty began hearing from countless women who related to her story and felt largely invisible and unsupported in the decision-making process. She now helps women who are stuck, like she was, to get clarity on whether motherhood or a child-free path is for them so they can live a joyful, dynamic and fulfilling life, no matter the choice.
Speaker 3:Kelty, thank you so much for being here and for having the conversation, having this conversation with us today. Um, for me personally, I didn't really realize that it got to be a question to have kids or not until I got to a place in my life where, like I could I guess I could for a while, but where it was more of a reality. So thank you so much for holding space for us to talk about this question.
Speaker 1:You're most welcome, and that's something that I hear from so many people, and that was my experience as well. I mean, I think intellectually I knew that there was a choice, but based on what I was seeing around me and I guess, sort of the precedent that was set by women in my life, having kids was just what you did or would do. So I also didn't question that until I really came to this sort of crisis of faith of is this actually what I want for myself? Is this that right path for me?
Speaker 3:Yeah, do you mind sharing briefly about your story of deciding if you wanted to have kids or not and how you finally made that decision?
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. Well, I think you know, perhaps, as some listeners might be able to relate, growing up, I had the assumption that I would one day become a mom. I grew up in a really, I guess, quite traditional household mom, dad, there were three of us kids. I was the eldest, the only daughter, and, although it wasn't something that was openly spoken about, as far as this is the expectation for you, again, it was just what I saw modeled around me and, to be honest, it didn't occur to me until much, much later, probably in my early thirties or mid thirties, that I really had not a single role model of a woman in particular, but I want to say almost people in general that had not gone on to have kids at some point, you know, whether through becoming birth, parents or whether adoption, what have you? Everyone, it seemed in my life, whether aunts and uncles, family, friends, they were all parents, and so the assumption was that I would do this at some point, but it would be later, and so I treated it as a later problem.
Speaker 1:If you will, a later question because, for a long time I was preoccupied with, of course, growing up, becoming a young adult, going to university, finding myself in different relationships. I was doing a lot of traveling, I was living overseas for a time and it was really only, I would say, in my later twenties, after meeting my now husband I was 26, pardon me, 27 when we met that I started to question more like not even so much do I want kids, but when are we going to have kids? And I think this was really based on what I saw going around around me, which is that other people are getting married and having children. And although there was a lot of me that this idea of having kids didn't really appeal to me on various levels, I thought that I would still do it. It was just like I'm not ready now. It was a constantly feeling of I'm not ready, not now and again, maybe people can relate to this idea of like, once I do this, once we do that when we're 30, when we're 32, then maybe that's something that we'll pursue. And the interesting thing is, I found myself in this wonderful relationship with this man who would be an incredible father really. You know, knowing this would hopefully be my would be an incredible father really. You know, knowing this would hopefully be my life's relationship. You know my big love and although I had this great foundation in terms of my relationship and I had gone to school and I was doing work I loved and I had this support and I felt well-resourced in a sense, to have a child, it was something I still didn't want.
Speaker 1:And I would say I became quite increasingly consumed with this question, like when, and maybe maybe at some point I thought you know, if I have a child, I guess the realization slowly dawned on me, but maybe this is something I wouldn't do. But I became so consumed with it that I finally told myself that I was going to stop thinking about it because I wasn't coming to conclusions and that I would make a decision when I was 35. And the reason I picked this magic number, 35, and it's one that people may be, you know, nodding their heads as you are this is when we've been told, as women, that our fertility, there's sort of the fertility drop off and there's actually, you know, some truth and also that's not entirely true that that happens. But this was the number in my head. Okay, 35, I'll figure it out. So I thought, like I'm going to leave this until the 11th hour, yeah, and again, like my husband and I we'd often say, like when we have kids or later, like the talking was that we have children, but there was nothing very firm or fixed about that. And so 35 arrived and I still didn't know if it was what I wanted and I just kind of kept pushing it off, pushing it off.
Speaker 1:And at that point in time and I'm trying to remember now so I'm 41, six years ago almost I moved from Vancouver, canada, to Munich, germany, which is where I'm now based, and I want to say that partly, I think the move was precipitated by this idea that I saw everyone around me eventually getting married, having a child or children, or at least planning or trying to. And I felt, like my husband and I, life was kind of stagnant or standing still. And it wasn't bad, you know, it was great. I had a business I loved, I um, you know he was doing work, he enjoyed, we had a really, really good, rich life, and yet people were moving to the suburbs. They're consumed with, you know, kids are growing up, they're going to school, and so we decided also but he's German, so you know we'd always had this thought or agreement that we would live on his side of the world for some point, and so we moved here in 2018. And in my mind, it was also this idea of like let's do something that we want for ourselves, where we're really like enacting change in our own life, as opposed to just sitting around feeling like, okay, well, you know, we're the people without kids and everything else is happening and that's not really what we want. And so it's so funny to think back, because I remember friends asking me like so are the two of you going to have kids? And I would always say maybe. We're not sure, you know, I'm not sure, maybe, not, maybe. And after coming here, I want to say probably.
Speaker 1:Within a year or so of arriving in Germany, I thought I have to decide. Like I could see 40 approaching, I had this point of been with my partner probably for 10 years and I thought nothing's changing. Like I I can think about this question for the rest of my life. You know, opportunity to have kids, if that exists for me, would pass me by, and so I had to really do a lot of soul searching and also commit to a decision-making process, like not just hope that the, that the, the answer would come to me, but actually say I'm going to go out and find it, because what so many of us are told is that don't worry about it, you're, you'll just know. You'll just know when it's time to become a mom, you'll just know when it's time to have kids, you'll just know this is what you want. And I'm thinking okay, I'm now 35, 36, 37 years old, I don't just know. And so I started working with a life coach. I started really engaging with the topic.
Speaker 1:I became what I call child-free curious, so really noticing that there were communities of women who had actively chosen this path for themselves, and where I ultimately ended up was feeling like I don't belong on either side. I don't identify with the moms that I know, and I want to say that I knew women who, sure, since you know I wanted to be a mother, since I was a young girl, I had friends like that. But I also knew women who said, meh, I'm not really sure if it's what I want, I'm not really sold on it, I'm kind of ambivalent, it doesn't sound that great to me, and ultimately they would become, they would become moms, and for me that was always this feeling of like it's not personal abandonment, but sort of this feeling of it's inevitable. Of course I'm going to have a child and so I didn't. I didn't identify with any of that. And yet when I saw the child-free community or communities online, I also did not identify with this, really, you know, strong sort of position of likewise never wanted it.
Speaker 1:Kids are gross, you know, parenting stupid, like lots of really kind of negative perspectives on this all, and I thought what is wrong with me? I feel so weird. There must be something wrong with me. Like, do I need to go to the doctor and get my hormones checked? Am I broken as a woman? Why am I not so? Why am I so unfeminine? Like, what is wrong with me? Is this because of what happened to me, you know, in my youth? Is whatever that said?
Speaker 1:Slowly and it was really a process I came to not just recognize that I wanted to stay child free, but that it was more of an acceptance of that desire.
Speaker 1:I think for a time I had recognized that becoming a mom was not for me, and yet I was judging myself because of the messaging that we get that that is not the okay thing to do, and so, I guess, to sort of wrap up my long story, which is, of course, very abbreviated, it was really about starting to show myself some compassion and understanding that this, I believe, is just who I am, or who I've become through the experiences I've had in my life, and that there's nothing wrong with a not knowing, with feeling ambivalent, and there's nothing wrong with choosing a child free path. So it's, it's been a few years since that point and, as you shared, um, in your lovely intro, I've now heard from so many other, you know, folks of all genders saying like this is my story too. I totally identify with this. I don't know what I want, I don't know which is which is for me.
Speaker 3:So oh, kelty there, everything you just said I am so excited to dive deeper into. And as you were talking and you said the term child-free, curious. It reminds me a lot A few weeks ago I believe it was episode 88, I'll have it linked in the show notes. We did a series of sober curious conversations and I believe Ruby Warrington founded the term Sober Curious and has written Woman Without Kids about this topic as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think it's so important for us to start questioning things like this. Like when I heard the term Sober Curious, I was like I had no idea that that was me and I also like didn't really have this is silly to say but like I didn't really process that not drinking was an option. If you like weren't an alcoholic, like I thought like, oh, like you have to have a really hardcore reason to not drink. And now I don't have any issues with alcohol, I just don't do it. I don't drink because I don't like it. And it feels like to me this conversation about the decision to have kids or not really roots in the heart of this podcast, which is like how can we live with intention and authenticity? Yeah, and I'm so glad that you are holding space for people to explore this very important decision within themselves. Thank, you.
Speaker 3:And how you talked about. You know, my background is in mindfulness and when you were talking about as you came to your decision to not have kids, it seems like two ingredients that really supported you in that were steeping in radical acceptance and radical self-compassion. Because there are so many stories from society we're getting that are telling us so many other things about like, oh, it's unnatural to be a woman and not want to have kids, it's shameful, it's selfish, like the list can go on and on and we'll dive deeper into that, but I think that capacity to really listen to yourself and meet all of those parts with acceptance and compassion is like kind of the secret sauce to everything 100% yeah, and I love what you said about really like at the root of this, all it's about living with intention and being conscious and conscientious, and it's something that we're not taught to do.
Speaker 1:It's like we follow this script. We act as we see others around us acting and we never stop to ask ourselves is this for me? Is this a right path? And those who question it, of course, were effectively scorned for doing so. And we're told that that's not the normal thing in the normal way.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and you know that choice is being taken away from so many people too. And acknowledging like we do have agency in this decision and deserve that autonomy.
Speaker 1:A hundred percent. It's a privilege, I tell people, if you have an opportunity to make this decision, that is one that so many women in this world, for a multitude of reasons, don't have. And so if you have that privilege like choose wisely and choose consciously, it's a gift to be able to do that.
Speaker 3:We now have a free, intentional living community on discord where you can come together with fellow listeners to reflect on the conversations we've had on the podcast. We not only talk about the podcast but really all the things that support us in living with intention. There's also a link in the show notes to join this free community and I would be honored to have you there. We actually had a listener submit a question about people who identify in the queer community. They wanted to know, you know, if it's something that people in the queer community have an easier experience with that decision, being a being in a community where it's more normalized might make that experience more supportive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's definitely something to consider and I think, as with you know, certainly any identity we may have, there's going to be challenges and there's also going to be perhaps, like you know, benefits, if you will, or things that are made easier. And you know, for example, some people say like, for example, gender roles are a really big concern for a lot of people in cis heterosexual, you know, partnerships, and so that is something that you may not see, for example, with two women who are in partnership, because there's more of an understanding of how those roles might be slid and what that might look like, or less of an assumption, I should say, of how those things might be, not even just within the relationship, but like external to it. I think, a lot of times, heterosexual couples say, you know, we want to have that balance or we want things to be equitable, but that's not always what happens, based on how the world has been set up to support or not support them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and even as someone in a female body like I, don't think it will ever be equitable, because this is directly impacting my body and impacting me on like a cellular level no matter how supportive your partner is and how much you try to split roles, if you are the one that's having a human come out of your body, that is an entirely different thing, and there's so many risks about having a kid and what that does to you and your physical health that people don't talk about. And the more women I speak to who are in this phase of trying to get pregnant having miscarriages, having really hard illnesses arise because of these things it's just something that women are not nearly supported enough around and I think it's a really important element to call into the conversation is like the the physical risk it puts women at yeah, yeah, and oftentimes so much more than need be.
Speaker 1:Right, you look at, yeah, you look at um maternal mortality rates in places like the us I believe the uk as well especially among populations like the black population community, for example. It's like it's, it's horrible and those deaths should not be happening. But the fact of the matter is, as it stands now, there are greater risks and greater risks, specifically for certain groups of women.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so one listener sent in this question that I kind of want to step into. I'll play their response. The audio on this one's a little spotty, but it's short, so just bear with me on that.
Speaker 6:I am a 31 year old female who is child free. I have always pretty much felt like I would not have kids and still feel, about 95%, that I do not want to have children, although as I am starting to age and my biological clock is beginning to tick, and if I did have kids I definitely would prefer not to be an older mom. So my question is are there specific questions that you recommend asking oneself to help define thought clarity, especially self to help define that clarity, especially if you are feeling like you are more likely than not going to have children.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that question coming in is just like where do people start when they're trying to decide if they want to have kids or not?
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, it's such a good question and what I want to recommend is, first of all, being okay with being in discomfort and uncertainty, which nobody's really okay with, right, we hate that and that's part of what makes this tricky is not just the enormity of this decision, but the fact that it feels so bad, not knowing and there's so much doubt around what's going to happen if I make the wrong decision. But being okay with where you're at and recognizing that there are so many other people who also either feel or have felt this way I know I hear from a lot of people like that's brought them a lot of comfort, for example, finding myself and our community. Second of all, what I really recommend and again, this is tough to do, but is to set aside the question of do I want to have children or not and really look at how do I want to live. You know, how do I want my life to look.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so doing like a zoom out approach, if you will, or what I like to call it is, you know, starting on the macro level and moving more to the micro, and so looking at things like, really, what are my priorities in life, how do I want to spend my time and energy, what are my unique wants, needs and desires? And these are questions that we are so seldom encouraged to ask, that I mean I can't tell you the number of people in the work that I do as a clarity coach who I ask them, whether it concerns career, this decision, what have you, what do you want? And the answer is I don't know, I have no idea what I want. And there are, of course, so many reasons that we are disconnected from our bodies, from our own wisdom, from our inner knowing. But again, taking that do I want to have children? Question out of the equation and just being like what do I know for sure about how I want to live my life, what my values are, what my priorities are, et cetera. And the more we can.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I like to think of it as like the question isn't necessarily like if you want to have kids, but it's like what are the potential life paths that you can pursue? I love that reframe. Sorry to cut you off, no not at all.
Speaker 1:I'm glad you, I'm glad you find that helpful and it, yeah, it's. You know, it's ultimately about like setting the stage, so to speak, or thinking about this as like a canvas upon which we're then going to like draw a picture. First, we need to look at what's this canvas we're working with and, of course, there may be certain things that we learn about ourselves in our lives that are going to be compatible with both paths. But there also may be realizations that a person has that makes them say or give pause to Ooh, I'm not sure if having children is going to be that right thing for me. Um, so that can be a good starting point and that's I mean, that's work that's going to serve us in all areas of our life and it's continuous.
Speaker 1:It's not like we say, okay, now I know myself, you know. Therefore, now I can make this decision, but again, becoming more well acquainted with ourselves and we can do that through journaling or through working with a coach or therapist, or through meditation and just doing reflection, but really asking ourselves some of those fundamental questions. The other thing to look at is, really, what are the key sort of fears that are keeping me stuck in this decision. So what am I? What am I really afraid of when I look at either decision or maybe that, let's say the path that I'm really considering pursuing? And so, in my case, I was strongly leaning towards staying child free and when I thought about, like what about? That scares me, that, uh, that's preventing me from really leaning into it, it was the classic things that you know, a lot of people are going to say and think is like what if I regret it when I get older? What if I die alone?
Speaker 4:What if? What if? What if?
Speaker 1:it was like it was future tripping Right and, and those questions are worth certainly unpacking, exploring, and there are certain things that we can, we can do to help manage and calm those fears. And second to fears, it's also about looking at the beliefs that we have about, like, what does that mean if I choose that? Like if I am a woman who doesn't have kids, what does that mean about me? What do I think or feel about myself? What do I perceive others are now going to think about me.
Speaker 1:The belief might be I'm going to be, you know, an outsider amongst my friends and family if I don't have kids. And so, again, taking a deeper look at that and really looking at you know our own beliefs and then, if there are ways to reshape those in such that they will serve us better, to like it's like by really looking these things in the face, so to speak, it can help us clear the way, like looking at our monsters and being our demons and saying, okay, who are you? Then we can really start to actually connect with what we want, because we're clearing away the weeds, so to speak.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that reminds me you know a lot of what you're saying. I feel like it's really steeped in mindfulness work and that belief system of like noticing what are the stories you're telling yourself about this? What are, what is that soundtrack in your head? And then I really love Byron, katie and the four questions about like um, is this is this belief true? Can I absolutely know it to be true? And then I think it's like what if this belief wasn't true? You know it allows you to really settle with like what stories am I telling myself? What realities quote unquote am I painting for myself that might not actually be there? And how can I reframe this? And not even like reframe, but like take a new perspective and take a new seat in the way I relate to these societal stories and these stories that are in my mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I totally agree, and I love Byron Katie's four questions. Those are so good and they could be so good for doing this sort of beliefs work. I want to add that I think there's a point that we can get to with that where, intellectually, we know or believe something else. So we say, of course it's fine to choose a child-free path, for example. However, it's something else to really like embody that and to feel it, and I think for a lot of us it's more of like an emotional or even physical sort of sensation that we have, that like something is amiss or something feels unsafe, and so there's no one size fits all solution for that, except to advise that like there are different modalities that we can sort of employ and that it's something that takes time. And I also think it's about compiling the evidence.
Speaker 1:As I say, I like to think of myself as a bit of a detective, like how can we like put on our magnifying glass or seeing eye and think about what evidence do I have to support a different belief?
Speaker 1:So if we say it's fully normal to to choose the child-free path, to look at, you know, who do I, who do I regard as being like a very, you know, normal, healthy, well-adjusted person, if you want, you know.
Speaker 1:Of course we can also look at what is normal. Do I want to be normal? But like really looking at assembling a new way of viewing the world based on experiences we've had, based on people we know, based on all these other things that we know to be true that may be outside of this arena, Like, for example, if we feel really fearful to ask ourselves you know, when have I felt really fearful making a big decision and yet it served me well, despite my uncertainty and so, knowing I've done this before. It's okay for people not to like what I choose, you know? Oh, there was that time I switched my program at university and I dropped out of med school and my parents were pissed off or whatever. That can then reinforce like, yeah, but that served me and that was good and that was hard, but they got over it or they didn't, but like, I dealt with it.
Speaker 3:So yeah, developing that deep sense of self-trust within yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah with it. So yeah, developing that deep sense of self-trust within yourself. Yeah, yeah, that's a big piece for sure.
Speaker 3:Okay, if you were listening to that and just thought, darn like I really wish I was taking notes for that. Don't worry, I nerded out for you and I have created a kids or child free cheat sheet based off of Kelty's wisdom from today's conversation. So just click the link in the show notes to get the guide. Oh, and also, if you don't already, you should totally support this podcast by joining the dream team for as little as $3 a month. There is also a link in the show notes to join and support the operating costs of this lovely offering I want to share from this next listener. They were kind of reflecting on some of the hardest parts about making the decision-making process for themselves, and this one I love because it came from a man, which I know most of this conversation is around women. It's easier to talk about when we are women, but it is important, I think, to acknowledge that it's a choice that you should absolutely make for yourself, and it's not necessarily one that happens in isolation, you know we're often working with another partner.
Speaker 3:So that's another layer of the dynamic we have to sift through. But here is a submission from our next listener.
Speaker 4:Growing up, I never really thought about what being a dad could look like. I never envisioned myself as a dad, and it's only in the last couple of years, now that I'm married and more people around me that are my contemporaries are having kids, do I think about what it would be like for me to also be a father, and it really mostly just terrifies me. I think that fear of messing up or not being good at it is probably the biggest thing that's holding me back, and also just not knowing if it's something that like. Is it something that I really want to do or does it just look like fun on Instagram? I guess is the like. I just don't.
Speaker 4:I have no idea what it would be like, and maybe it's one of those things where you just like don't know what it's like until you do it, and I don't know if I'm ever going to be able to like take that leap confidently, but I guess we'll see. Because I don't belong to a really strong family unit like my extended family I'm not very close with and I'm not super close with my parents, and because I don't belong to any sort of like religious community, I feel like I don't have a very clear like reason or methodology or like focus on, like why kids should be part of my life. So until I figure that out, I feel like, until I figure out why I want to have kids like a really concrete reason and feel like it's true for me, I don't think I'm going to do it.
Speaker 3:So there's a lot in that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what an amazing message. First of all, and I just want to commend the thoughtfulness of this person and how self-aware he seems, and I can already tell how much thought has been put into this, or at least the enormity of this decision, which, a it's enormous. B I mean it's one of the only things in life that we can't try on for size before committing to. I mean, there's perhaps other examples, but to like such an extent as this, no, I think what he says at the end is really important. You know, until I find a reason why I want to do this, I'm not going to do it. And I think we should be asking ourselves why am I choosing this path? And sometimes the answer is as simple as because I don't want to I mean, that's a great reason or because I want to. You know, parents also say because I want to.
Speaker 1:But I think we we need to have honesty with ourselves in terms of what our drivers are, and I know there can often be a lot of talk about, you know, good and bad reasons for choosing child free or choosing to have kids. Like, well, if you say you're having kids because you want someone to love or you want to have the connection in your family you didn't have. That's a bad reason, right? Some people might say that, and I think it's more about like, is it a good or bad reason for you? Like, can you be? Do you think that that is a good reason to have a child? Do you think you can offer that child what that child needs and support them in a way? The child needs to be supported. And so I think having that honesty with ourselves is really important, and I do think that not just doing it, because it's the thing we're seeing other people doing but really being like why do I personally want this, or why do I not want this? Now, I certainly can understand what he's saying about. You know, if we haven't had, for example, like, healthy relationships with our own parents or within our own family, or even if we don't have that closeness right now to maybe see, for example, relationships between a sibling and a niece or nephew, it can be hard to know what that may look like for us, or that we don't necessarily have someone that we can speak with about this. But I think, if we're willing to do the work for ourselves and this again, like this, is based on a 30 second audio clip, but what I hear is a man that he's so cognizant of what is going on for himself and what his situation has been, and he strikes me as someone who's probably done quite a few work, quite a bit of work as far as his own self-development, and I just think you know these are the type of parents that we need in this world.
Speaker 1:However, just because you would be a great parent doesn't mean you should parent.
Speaker 1:I think I would be probably a really good mom in many ways, and yet, for various reasons, it's the path that I've not chosen for myself, and so, yeah, I mean taking a look at things.
Speaker 1:I guess the last thing I want to I want to offer is, although there's no real way of trying on, for size, what it is to parent, there is opportunity, I think, to have really honest, open conversations with people that we're not very often having, but to say to people like, really like, give me the ins and outs of what it's like to parent, and to ask specific questions, because some people will say, yeah, you know it's amazing or it's really freaking hard, but like, what does that mean?
Speaker 1:What does that entail? And so to have pointed questions like what has been most surprising to you since becoming a parent? What stage has been most difficult? What has been some of the good things for your relationship, your own relationship? What have been some of the challenges? And so, like being selective about what you want to know, I would also offer although the internet can be, you know, a dumpster fire, we also sometimes can hear and be witness to conversations that people otherwise would not share. So, for example, on Reddit, there are various groups and subgroups around people. There's like the fence sitters group for people who are trying to decide whether they want to have parents.
Speaker 1:There's a regretful, regretful parents or regretting parenthood thread and so sometimes you can kind of like you know, put your ear to the wall, so to speak, and say what are people saying and what am I hearing?
Speaker 1:That may make me have more awareness of my own situation and like what I recognize or identify the other piece with that is to spend some time with people's children, and people will say, of course, there's nothing like having your own children, and that someone else's kid or kids may drive you up a wall, but I do think it can give you an idea of, for example, parts of parenting that can be really mundane, because there are parts that are or some of the challenges that may come up, or even what a daily routine looks like. And if you find yourself, for example, spending a weekend with somebody and their kids, or maybe during the week going to school forget about holiday time but you may see and witness and hear things that make you think, okay, I'm curious, I want to know more. Or that made you think, wow, I did not know, this was what was involved.
Speaker 5:Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's all really really wonderful advice. Um, and two things that I kind of want to pull out from that is when we're talking about like so many elements are like one, making this choice for yourself, and two, I think it's also really important to like center the child in that conversation too. Like, am I bringing a kid in this world to meet like an unmet need I had with my family or these other unmet needs in my life that I'm not have not fulfilled, or is that like, am I bringing this child into the world with the capacity to honor that individual life separate of myself, because, even though it's something that comes from you, that being it's its own form of life?
Speaker 3:um, yeah, and needing to support it and that that's so important yeah yeah, and when they were talking about their relationship with family, it reminded me a bit of the term mother hunger. I recently came across this, kelly McDaniel, are you familiar with?
Speaker 1:I'm not, and I'm thinking like why do I not know about this term and this work?
Speaker 3:yeah, I will, I will share resources with you and I will link it in the show notes for others listening. But, um, kelly McDaniel has kind of coined the term mother hunger, which I heard through Ruby Warrington and it's kind of the adjacent to sober curious, and I don't know much.
Speaker 3:But from what I have surface level pulled from it, it seems like mother hunger like exists on a spectrum and it names, like these invisible wounds of maybe like missing comfort or safety or guidance from our caregivers and that can cause aversion to wanting to step into parenthood, or that can cause like a desire to like have those unmet needs filled. So like really seeing it as like a hunger, like something like needs to be stated yeah, yeah, yeah, and something inside of you. Um, so that's just. I'll link that for listeners to explore mother hunger. But I think it's a really curious thing to think about as well. And like, what were our stories told from our parents being passed down about? Like, did they regret having kids? Were they honest with us about what it was like? Or did they always put on a smile and act like it was the best thing in the world?
Speaker 1:You know having more and more spaces where we can explore our own rearing with that and how it impacts us in the decision-making process, yeah, well, and it's funny because now my suspicion is she probably Ruby Warrington probably refers to this work in Women Without Kids, which is a book I've read and I've also had Ruby Warrington. She's appearing on my podcast relatively soon. We've had that conversation already. So, yeah, I know, fangirl moment, right, fantastic. So, um, but, but, and actually Ruby and I talk about this idea of this motherhood spectrum, which I also want to just kind of give voice to, and the idea, just like we know, for example, that sexuality exists on a continuum, it's a, it's a spectrum, it's like we've so often thought that people are either gay or they're straight and it's this or it's that, but they've actually shown that there can be sort of this like gradient in between, so to speak, and that that can shift and change.
Speaker 1:And similarly with the motherhood spectrum which he refers to or talks about, is this idea that, like some of us aren't necessarily positioned on one end or the other of, like you know, I really am inclined to or well set up to be, or, you know, personally I'm the kind of person who would want to be a mom and and, and nor are we adamantly on that child-free side, but we may exist somewhere in the middle and it's that ambivalence and uncertainty and that gray zone that is so difficult and uncomfortable for us. I think, you know, culturally speaking, because we want things to be straightforward, we revere what is, you know, the black and the white. So, yeah, it's, it's now. Of course I want to. I'd love to actually get into Kelly's work around this, but I'm thinking, oh, I was a bad student. I think I know about this already.
Speaker 3:No, you are not. There's so much to unpack, yeah, but I do really love what you're saying about so much of life. We want to be black and white, but that's not whole and in my experience, with certainty and doubt and really everything in life, like you, can't have one without the other. So, like, within every certainty there is doubt and with every doubt there's a bit of certainty, like we can hold both. So I think sometimes we think like, oh, I will definitely know a hundred percent for sure. Like, yes, I'm supposed to be a mom, I'm gonna feel that way every day for the rest of my life.
Speaker 3:yeah, but you're, in my opinion, not that wouldn't be whole you're gonna have times where you doubt it, where you probably regret it, where, like you, have a wide range of emotions and vice versa, like if you make the decision not to have kids, you might feel totally rooted in that. And then there might be days where you, you know, have a longing for oh, what would it have been like? Or a doubt that maybe you should have or could have or would have whatever it for. Oh, what would it have been like? Or a doubt that maybe you should have or could have or would have whatever it is. But I think it's important to acknowledge that the presence of doubt doesn't mean you've made a wrong choice. It just means you're a whole person and that's another energy that's moving through and it just lives as a part of the experience. So, rather than freaking out at every doubt that might arise, like allowing yourself to sit with that and be with it and know that it's just a part of the whole and all things that we do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, holly, that is such sound advice and I couldn't agree more. There's such reluctance to embrace this idea that there will be discomfort and there will be challenge and there will be doubt, no matter what we choose. And I think part of why some of us get stuck in the middle with this decision for so long is that we want to feel like our decision is really like clean in the sense that there's no uncertainty, there's only a hundred percent knowing. There's no ambivalence, there's no grief, there's no uncertainty, there's only a hundred percent knowing. There's no ambivalence, there's no grief, there's no challenge. And that's just not realistic and I think it's a really harmful idea. And I have a lot of people who will say this um, you know I've got comment threads of people saying you know, if it's not a hell yes, it's a no. If you're not a hundred percent in, it should be a no. And I really I appreciate the idea of what they're trying to.
Speaker 1:I think share here, which is this is an enormous decision and there shouldn't be half-assing it, like we should know and commit okay, specifically becoming a parent that this is what I want. But I don't know about you. But and I think part of this comes down to personality type as well, but I am someone who is very kind of pragmatic. I see both sides. I'm a diplomatic person. I see the pros, the cons, the benefits of virtually every different scenario in life, which can make me indecisive at times. But that's a good thing too, because the fact is, yeah, I mean any mother, and I mean some moms, will say, well, no, it's, I love it all. I even love the bad stuff. But I have have many mom friends where, like, I don't want to be a mom all the time. Being a mom sucks sometimes, it's hard sometimes, and that doesn't mean you don't love your kids, it doesn't mean you've made the wrong decision and likewise. I know sometimes you're a bad parent.
Speaker 4:No.
Speaker 1:And I think sometimes within the child-free space as well. There, well, if you know you're unsure, there's a part of you that wants to have a kid. You're not really child-free BS that you know. That sort of thinking is doing a real disservice because the fact is, especially for those people who've been in the middle, if you've been in the middle, if you've been on the fence, if you've been unsure or ambivalent, there is a part of you that wants both sides of this. There is a part of you that wants to be a mother, there is a part of you that wants to remain child free, and so I don't think it's natural for us to expect that that part of us is just going to disappear because we've made a decision. We can suppress it, we can say, oh no, I'm fine, I don't really care.
Speaker 1:But as an example, you know I love babies and I met my. Well, I met him previously, but saw my new nephew for the second time this past summer when I was back in Canada, and like holding this little, like chunky guy who was so cute, oh, I just like love so much and having him in my arms and dancing around with him and thinking I'm not going to have this, you know saying to Chris like, shouldn't we have done this? And was it in you know earnestness? Was I really thinking we should have done this? No, but there's that twinge. Well, that's okay. It's okay to have a twinge, it's okay to feel like a moment's beautiful and to wonder what would it have been like if I chose this. But it doesn't mean I've made the wrong choice.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. And I think when we feel those twinges of discomfort and uncertainty, like it's a great opportunity to mother and like nurture those parts of ourselves with compassion, like how can you hold yourself in that? And like nurture yourself maybe the way you wish you had been nurtured as a kid? And how can you practice that own mothering within your own being?
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%, I totally agree.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so something that I think comes up a lot, particularly for women in the decision if they've decided not to have kids is shame, and that's something we've touched on a little bit. But I think there's a lot of rhetoric that it's like unnatural, it's selfish, that the list goes on and on, and a listener shared something really interesting about this that I want us to tune into around that topic.
Speaker 5:Throughout my whole lifetime, I've never felt called to have children, despite other women telling me that that might change as I get older. And then, in 2022, I was in a traumatic accident that basically made it unsafe for my body to carry children in the future. And not long after that, I was talking to a friend who told me that she personally does not feel called to have children in this lifetime because she could sense that in a previous lifetime she had already raised several children and so it wasn't going to be part of her current lifetime. And that kind of got me thinking, like maybe the reason why I've never felt called to have children is because somehow I've always known that I wasn't going to be able to and it wasn't going to be a part of my calling in this lifetime.
Speaker 1:I have goosebumps, wow Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I really appreciated that share. You know, first from the perspective of this person, is firm in their knowing of like no, it's a no for me, and that is lovely that they know that. And then I often think, when people know their answer and people say like, oh well, that'll change, or have you really thought about it? It really like tries to question the person's ability to trust themselves and like have you thought about it? It's kind of like well, of course I've thought about it. It's you know, it's my life that I'm living it. Just, I think it's really unhelpful when people try to push their perspective on you in response to something of like I know, and then they're saying, well, that'll change, you know, that's writing off some key part of you, versus it may be inviting someone to question it or get curious about why they know they don't want to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, I think I mean it's almost an insult and I'm curious if anyone has ever asked a man, are you sure what if you change your mind? I mean, I'm sure it's happened before, but I really feel like it's not conscious, but part of it is this sort of unconscious idea that women are. You know, we're too emotional, we're not sure about our feelings. That and I think it also taps into this idea that there is, there should, on like a biological level, be this innate desire to have kids, which you know is a conversation for a different day. But there's actually a lot of evidence that suggests that of course we have biological rhythms and urges, broadly speaking. But the idea that we have a biological clock that is making us want to have children, we want to have sex, right, like we, like this, this is what humans want, and sex, by, you know, virtue of doing it enough generally will lead to children eventually. But you know, we think that women specifically should want to have kids and become, become a mom, and so, yeah, I think it does unfortunately cause people unless they really are confident. I think it does unfortunately cause people unless they really are confident, and I think it's maybe a little bit different once you've come to a clear choice with yourself.
Speaker 1:But I know quite a few women and I work with some of them who are almost sure they wanna stay child-free and they're really working to become more confident in their choice, and a big piece of that is they don't have that self-trust because what they're seeing and hearing from other people is you will change your mind. And of course, there's examples of people who say well, I changed my mind. And I think there are people who maybe were unsure, who changed their mind and became parents, but I actually have heard very, very few instances of people who had decided, who changed their mind. Actually, on the contrary, most of the research and evidence is showing that people who make a conscious decision this is not someone who perhaps was unable to have children and couldn't really like reckon with that outcome, but somebody who says I don't want this. The occurrence of regret is actually very, very low, probably on a level that exists, similar to, maybe less than, parental regret, which, by the way, is a thing that nobody wants to talk about, but it does exist.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you for naming that, and I also, just, you know, can't get over the fact that this person, like now, physically is unable to have kids and they're, like some part of of me I think, always knew and that their friend shared. Like maybe in a past life I did raise a lot of kids and like, if you prescribe to that concept in some level, that might take a little weight off of like maybe that's just not what I'm here to do in this life and it kind of lends into that question of, like, what life paths can I take in this one?
Speaker 3:knowing that it doesn't have to be one, and you can do it different ways, and parts of you may have already done it in different ways.
Speaker 1:I got to say Holly and I think part of why I got goosebumps and I'm getting them again. My mom calls them angel shivers.
Speaker 1:I love that, yeah, isn't that nice. Yeah, there's like. It's like when there's something, there's something happening. I'm not fully clear on my sense of, you know, reincarnation, past lives, future lives, but I've often thought and I truly feel that in this path, this is not my life, my life choice or path, but I do have that belief and there's a part of me that feels, whether it's in a parallel life or a past life or a future life, although interesting, I had someone who reads the what are they called? The Kashuk records tell me I've never had children before, which I found interesting, and I've lived few past lives, which I would in some sense feel I disagree, but that's a story for a different time.
Speaker 1:But this idea that, like, maybe there exists a version of me in some way, shape or form who has children, but it's not in this lifetime, and I just I, I and I think specifically now, with the work I'm doing, that walking this path is about so much more than not having children. It's really about encouraging people and offering an example of what it means to live by your truth and what it means to unashamedly be yourself, and that feels like such an incredible gift that I'm giving that people argue that having children and giving children to this world is the greatest gift, and I call bullshit. I mean there's so many other ways that we can make an impact, be of service and have purpose.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I really love what you're saying too, because to me, me I think like living that with that intention and authenticity and alignment of your truest self is like that's what I feel most connected to in this life, and if I were to have a kid, like that's what I would want to model for them. And how can you do that if that's not what you're doing for yourself? You know. So, I think, having that knowing of what intention and living in alignment is for you, and rooting yourself in that and that's your compass, that's your guide through whatever paths you take yeah, absolutely and I think another thing people say a lot around like the shaming of should.
Speaker 3:If you don't have kids, like you know, you're not a good person in society, or like you're, you're going off the path, which I don't think it's a bad thing, um at all, but this is something like Ruby Warrington also talks about. Is, like this birth strike, like the conditions of the world right now. Like if we're centering the child in this conversation, like let's look at the environment, let's look at the like political state of the world. Like in the societal support is society actually supporting women to have kids right now? Like no, so why should we? And is this planet viable for continuing life? Like that's a question that's ongoing. So I think these are concerns that we can hold in this conversation too. Is like not only how does this root in me and my life, but like in the greater prospect of the world, like what does it mean to bring a life into this world?
Speaker 1:Yeah absolutely, and I think we may have that desire to mother or have a child or children, or parent, I should say, but what we may realize and what we may decide to do is something different.
Speaker 1:Just because and I think that's that can be a powerful question to ask ourselves is like if I was to become a parent, under which, which conditions would I need to do that? You know, some people say I would like to parent with a. Under which which conditions would I need to do that? You know, some people say I would like to parent with a partner and I'm single and I'm of an age where I don't necessarily foresee myself finding a partner, or maybe I don't want to be in partnership with someone, and so for them, they make the conscious decision that, like this is not the path I'm going to be following in life, and this plays in super heavily for a lot of my clients is like the conditions in which they would be having a child or children.
Speaker 1:It doesn't feel supportive and it's a very unfortunate, sad thing. And of course, there's a lot of talk of well, why are people not having kids? And this is terrible and populations are declining, and I think what governments and the powers that be need to be asking is why? Why are people not having children? Is?
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Speaker 3:So, when it comes to like what are some of the fears about actually becoming a parent I want to share? Like one of my biggest personal ones, which is losing yourself, I feel like. Well, knowing myself, I know that I have an inclination towards codependency and putting so much. I'm a nurturer. I love nurturing. I am more comfortable taking care of other people and attuning to their needs than I am taking care of myself and naming and honoring my needs, and that is ongoing work that I have done and you know, now I'm at a point in life where I feel like pretty rooted in that. But the thought of having a kid, I'm like I know my inclinations and I know when it's something, if it is something I choose to do, if it's something I've created in this life I'm responsible for, I'm gonna like, I think, lean into that side even further yeah and then do you just lose yourself in that, and I think there are so many mothers who do, and their children become their lives.
Speaker 3:And then not that that's wrong, but for me and what I want, like I want to be fully Holly and fully me in all circumstances of life. You know, kid or no kid. So that is a big fear in my mind, um, and I feel like I'm starting to see this newer wave of women in my life who are having kids and like stepping into the peak of their career and like stepping into deeper and deeper parts of themselves, which isn't something I always saw from the women around me growing up.
Speaker 1:I think there are so many, you know, really positive. It sounds like that you have in your own life and I think that we are starting to have, in terms of what it looks like to be a mother and speaking withring type of mothering. And that's not to put the blame on our moms, it's the way that things had been set up, but it looked to be a lot of hard work, not a lot of fun, and that most emphasis in terms of responsibility, work, et cetera, was on our mothers, at least in you know, traditional sort of the nuclear households, if you will. And there you know there are much. There there are new immense pressures on women that I think there is also this thing of like I'm going to have my own identity, I'm going to have my own life, I'm going to grow my career or whatever, and I'm going to be the super mom. And the fact is is like striking that balance from everything I hear, is immensely challenging.
Speaker 1:But I think for you, I mean having examples of women who've done that and really you know, having conversations with them and like watching what you're seeing and how that sort of how that looks to you've ever been and you're like you're the most in and of yourself and that, how important it is to have your own identity is to think about like, what makes you you, what make when you feel most in and of yourself?
Speaker 1:Uh, the USU, as I talk to my clients about when you feel like the USU, what are you doing? Who are you being, what are your needs, what do you require, what are those non-negotiables you have in your life? And then seeing if you can sort of envision a path of motherhood and also working with your partner, if you're in a relationship to look at, knowing it's not going to be perfect, knowing that you're probably going to get like derailed at some point, as we, as we all will but, to say, like what are those things that I'm going to need, what are those sort of conditions, so to speak, to be able to do motherhood in a way that allows me to still stay within who I am as an individual?
Speaker 3:I think that can be powerful. Yeah, that's really good advice. Thank you, yeah, so we have one final listener to hear from, and this is someone who did have kids and they shared their decision-making process, which is so thoughtful that I think everyone needs to hear. So we are going to hear from our next listener.
Speaker 7:I was married for at least five years before we really started talking seriously about having kids, and I think we'd been married almost 10 when, when our kids came along um, so it's definitely something that we thought a lot about and talked a lot about.
Speaker 7:Um, around around the time I turned 30 probably, I really started to feel like a biological readiness we'll call it and a deep curiosity about pregnancy and kind of like, okay, this would be fun, I'm really curious to see, like what this is like in my body.
Speaker 7:My husband really is great about making decisions with a lot of intention and so when we first started talking about, hey, we might be ready, you know, there are the logistical things Do we have enough space in our house, can we afford child care but he asked for six months to really think about the decision and encouraged us to have conversations about why would we have kids, beyond just the sort of societal norms and expectations that having kids makes you a good, successful couple or or a good, successful woman in some way and to try to really center the child in that like not having children as some extension of ourself or way to fulfill our own desires or unmet needs own desires or unmet needs, but to really think about what it means to parent another human in the world, to bring another human being into this crazy world.
Speaker 7:With my second daughter there were some not complications she's been fine and developmentally normal but question marks that came up in my pregnancy in the 20-week ultrasound that really forced me to confront would I have what it takes to parent a special needs child? And at that time revealed like yeah, that's part of what he spent those six months thinking about, like you don't just get to assume that you're going to have a perfectly healthy baby. And I think that just thinking about that and sitting with that and asking myself how I would handle that was a really important part of that process that I'll be.
Speaker 7:I didn't really think about those things until after I was already pregnant, but I guess the other thing I would say is is really thinking about what bringing another human in the world and parenting that human means. It has meant for me a dramatic reorganization of my life and my priorities, and I remember vividly the morning after my first daughter was born, realizing that, like now, there was a whole other being to care for that. For nine months of my pregnancy, taking care of my baby had just been taking care of myself, making sure I was eating well and sleeping enough, and that was how I took care of my baby. And now I still had to take care of myself in my postpartum recovery and there was a baby with lots of needs to take care of.
Speaker 7:And as someone who exclusively breastfed, particularly the first nine months, if not year, of each of my daughter's lives, I have very fuzzy memories of.
Speaker 7:Because so much of your physical energy and being is going into producing milk and feeding another human and growing another human.
Speaker 7:And it is an amazing thing and I really enjoyed, but it it took a lot out of my body and out of my mental energy and since my youngest turned two I've felt the capacity to kind of pop my head out of the ground and look around and think, okay, what does it now mean to be myself and be a mother? Really just sitting with that reality of what parenting does to your whole self, to your whole being, to your priorities, to your attention, to your time, is something worth considering before you decide to have kids. Oh, and one more thought I want to add. But I saw something I thought was worth sharing around, like it's not about having another baby because it can seem fun to have another baby, they're so sweet, but that stage goes really really fast and the the better question is sort of are you ready to parent another human for life? So I thought that was a helpful perspective to not focus so much on the baby phase but the broader picture of parenting over a lifetime.
Speaker 3:Wow I don't think that right.
Speaker 1:You go. No, I was going to say sorry, I don't think I have anything I could possibly add to that. I just want to commend this person on having so much forethought and continuing to really look at this process of being and becoming a parent. And you know the question she asked about, like what does it mean now that my child's a bit older, and what does it mean for my own identity? I just all I can think is that if every parent could approach having children in this way, what a beautiful world we would live in.
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely, and I think, for people listening, if you're on the fence, if you're thinking about it or maybe you are a new parent just listening to those questions and hearing those words I think are a really grounding little like you were talking about before for our last listener a way to give you a peek into a window of what more of that reality is like and ways we can really move through it, steeped in intention.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I think you know I want to highlight as well when she said like how and I'm paraphrasing her words but just how everything changes and I think you know it does require some intention and forethought. You know, as I encouraged you to do, to really think about, okay, who am I and what do I need? But at the end of the day, things are going to change dramatically and there will be challenges in order to really like uphold those things in your life that are important and to act intentionally and to act mindfully and it's something I hear time and again from parents is just how much even knowing it would be hard, just how challenging it would be and, of course, how beautiful and rewarding and fulfilling it is as well. But I think people kind of underestimate, as she said, you know, not just taking care of me, but now I've got to take care of me and this child, this other being that's. It's all consuming in many ways.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. And that last bit about that question of like don't ask yourself if you want to have a baby, like you were sharing, like dancing with your niece or nephew, like feeling like, oh, this is lovely, like that's a short little window Beyond that, like, do you want to parent a human for a lifetime? And that's the real question. We're sitting with Kelty. Thank you so much for your time today. Before you go, I want to see if you have a bit of advice for anyone who's listening today, who's maybe living in both places. They're on the fence and they're not sure. Part of them wants to have kid, parts of them doesn't. How can they live in both places? What is one bit of advice? I know this episode has lots of them, but what's one small thing listeners who are in that in-between space do today to support themselves where they're at?
Speaker 1:I think, a question we can ask ourselves and this requires a bit of an imagination but to think about if there were no extraneous factors and specifically, people, as far as you know, whether it's your own parents, whether it's your partner, whether it's your friends, if you can ask yourself if no one else had any bearing or influence on this decision. They didn't care one way or the other, they weren't part of it. In any bearing or influence on this decision, they didn't care one way or the other, they weren't part of it in any way, shape or form. What would I want? It can be quite illuminating, because we so often are really kind of mixed up in what we're hearing. You know, oh, my mom would really love to be a grandma and she'd be such a great grandma and my partner isn't so keen. They're really hesitant and we also tend to fast forward to actually taking action, to like what it would mean to actually then have a child, let's say, and we think about all of the considerations that we do need to make. You know, am I in a position financially, Am I in a position mentally, emotionally, Is my relationship in a good place, to be having a child? And those are super important questions to ask, but I think first and foremost, we need to look at do I have the desire to do this, and so it can be a helpful starting place, and I would even say, if somebody's really in the thick of making this decision, to commit yourself to not asking other people for their inputs or even tabling this conversation with them for a period of time, Because all of us believe that the choice we have made is that you know best right choice, or at least for ourselves.
Speaker 1:So you know, I always am happy when I hear moms say, for example, hey, it's great for me, but it doesn't mean it's great for you, and vice versa. When I hear child free people say, for example, hey, it's great for me, but it doesn't mean it's great for you, and vice versa. When I hear child free people say parenthood is a wonderful path for many people, because it is. But we at the same time have this idea that when somebody brings up the topic of kids or no kids that we want to impart all the reasons we think that our choice is a great one, that can really kind of mess with our heads and make it very difficult for us to discern what we want. And one thing we didn't talk about in huge detail, but where it concerns our partners that we would potentially parent with.
Speaker 1:I do think there are important, really important conversations to be had there. But I also think that first and foremost, we want to get connected with what our own desires are, or lack of desire, or to even frame, like I ask my clients often, if you could assign a percentage between what percentage of you is going towards that child-free path versus what percentage of you would like to be a parent. That can at least help us figure out, in a very unscientific way, where we're at. So if we say I'm sitting, you know, 90% in favor of staying child-free versus 10% kids, that can help us get a little bit more clarity in terms of where we're at and where we may be leaning.
Speaker 3:I love that percentage because that kind of gives us a little visual to see that wholeness in a little bit more organized way. Totally, kelty. Thank you so much for this conversation and for the work that you are doing to help people live their fullest, most authentic lives. Um, do you mind sharing a bit how people can work with you and stay connected with you, and I'll be sure that all of your links are in the show notes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. Well, the name of my brand is kids or child free Uh, so my web domain is kids or child freecom, and Instagram is also a really great place to find me. I do have a number of free resources. I have my own podcast, which is only about five, six weeks old, called the kids are childfree podcast, where I'm actually hosting conversations with both parents as well as people who've chosen not to have parents, as well as some people who are still in this middle ground, to have really honest conversations about how people made their own decisions and some of the challenges, as well as some of the you know sort of beautiful parts that have come up along that choice and that path. So those can be really great starting points as far as you know, getting kind of connected with my community and the resources I offer.
Speaker 1:And second to that, I do offer a workshop, which I would actually say is probably your best next step. If you say like, okay, I'm undecided, how can I get some support with that? And these workshops I host about once a month. They're $45. There's a group of like-minded, typically women although I have had a couple of men join the workshops who are going to be led through some different exercises and conversations to help you better connect with what path might be right for you. So that can be a good starting point. But all my other offers, my free resources, et cetera, you can find on kidsarechildfreecom.
Speaker 3:Awesome. Thank you so much and be sure to check the link in the show notes for all of Kelty's information, to work with her and learn more.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much, Holly, and I also want to thank all of the fantastic guests who left, all of their beautiful words and questions, et cetera.
Speaker 3:So thank, you for that. Yes, thank you. I just want to share a review that a listener left, and I want to invite you to leave a review too, because it's like whispering to the podcast algorithm gods when you leave a review and it helps more people find the podcast. So if you haven't already done so, you should definitely give this podcast a five-star review write, review in and share an episode you love, and now you get to hear this really sweet review. The title is Soothing Look into Many Topics on Self-Acceptance and Improvement. Couldn't love this podcast anymore. There are so many episodes on topics I would have never considered looking into. But then I listen and I have so many light bulb moments.
Speaker 3:The host, holly Holly, feels like she really believes in all of her listeners and their ability to start loving their whole selves and allow themselves compassion when struggling with so many of these hard topics. So happy I found this and so grateful for what it adds to my life. Thank you so much. This review actually made me tear up. I really do believe in each and every one of you and I'm really grateful for you listening and for this review.
